Solving The 'Web3 Trilemma' - Kelsey McGuire | Ep. 4

Julian: Firstquestion for you you have an amazing amount of experience. You have, we can goin so many different directions, but because you are in this amazing globalspace, how are you building community globally?

What resources do you and your company go into to actuallyfoster community and, start Building around and that ecosystem.

Kelsey: Yeah,

absolutely. And thanks for having me. But a huge focus isreally just being there in person and putting in the time and effort everysingle month. to make sure that we are hosting these amazing proof of communityevents all around the world.

And what those are our gatherings, say like we've had a bunchof different ones with our team in India, or you're ramping them up here in NewYork City where I'm based, and really tailoring the content to what is mostuseful for folks in that region. Whether it's hey, spinning up your own node,here's a how to, versus, hey, do you want to work in Web3?

Here's what things to consider if you want to get hired. It'snever a Shardeum pitch as much as there's a lot of great stuff to share there.So I think the number one thing is just like making a concerted effort to bethere and interact with the community face to face. And that's what kind of cantranslate to scaling a community online.

Julian: Does thattake different teams of people to actually start building out and act andmanage these communities? Being that it seems like community managers is nowSuch a niche role, but so important to a lot of the community fostering.

Kelsey: Yeah, it's soimportant. And I feel like it's one of those areas of Web3 organizations whereit's often understaffed.

So you'll have the occasional like very frazzled, overworkedcommunity manager. But that's really a spot where I think you should focus onon bringing in talent and hiring. And we have a great very large team that isfocused on community and other aspects of growth. But really, it's the folksthat are going to be there every day, understanding the individual communities.

And frankly, if you don't have folks, So, the area or helpinglocal sort of community managers spin up their own sort of approach to theproof of community or whatever meetup format the project has, you're going tobe missing out on a lot. Blanket tactic. It needs to be from differentperspectives and different people all working towards something when it comesto your community building.

Julian: How do youincentivize people to engage and continue that engagement? What are youoffering them that because there's a social reciprocity, when peoplecontribute, they expect value, just like almost human nature in that way. Whatare you offering for these individuals to actually?

Allow them to continue engaging within your community.

Kelsey: Yeah, so itvaries a lot. Like on this kind of slightly more lofty, idealistic view, youwant to be like, everything is intrinsically motivated. You want to be part ofthis like movement towards what we see of this like greater push towards acentralization.

Good. But when it comes down to it, it can also be. We'resupplying valuable knowledge when it comes to, like I mentioned earlier,spinning up a node, engaging in Web3, and people see value in that. People seevalue in, it's been even sushi or a glass of wine and some interactions one onone, getting out of your apartment, getting out of your house.

But I think that another Big, big kind of motivating is, tyingall of these community engagements into larger scale campaigns that areoccasionally incentivized. I've seen some different work, especially beforeNFTs were super popular. And then, we've seen a little bit of a downhill trendI won't get into, those special badges.

So folks can feel like they're actually a part of somethingthat not everyone is engage with So, I think that it's a combination of all ofthose different approaches that can really be valuable, but especially whenyou're working in a new, building out a community in a new market, it isactually Trying to get out there and listening first about what folks want tolearn and what actually drives them, whether it is a certain aspect of aproduct that you're building, or if it is the desire to meet with other folksin Web3 because they're missing that sense of camaraderie.

Or whether it is initially and you want to convert them downthe line, the desire for a free glass of wine or a piece of pizza. And that'ssomething you can still build on, like you've got to start somewhere,especially in new markets that can be tougher to break into.

Julian: Yeah.

How do you market, Web3 product like Shard when it's not onesingular product?

Kelsey: Yeah. So weare pushing, when I talk about Shardeum, the whole ecosystem. Since we're inL1, we really want to focus on, what we're doing as well as the core valueprops for each region, whether that's the focus on decentralization, whetherthat's like an easier onboarding process, whether that is, running your ownnode.

But also really focusing on what ecosystem projects are workingwith us and what they can provide. Say certain markets maybe are looking for anew wallet solution, or they're looking for a new way to engage with Web3gaming, or whatever the case may be. I think that you really focus on youroverarching message, which for us, you know, solving The trilemma anddecentralization for everyone and then really focus on each core market andwhat the communities need and what they're looking for and what they need tolearn to keep engaging with you and hone in on that.

And it's really important there to bring in those likeecosystem projects, those key partners, because That's really how you build Ithink the most strength with the community is that sort of collaborative jointeffort. You're not just out there talking about yourself all the time. It'sjust like when you meet a new person and you're trying to have a chat withthem.

If they're just screaming in your face I'm Kelsey, I do this.And that's the entire conversation. It doesn't really resonate the same way assomeone asking questions about you and trying to shape the conversation in thatdirection.

Julian: Yeah.

And when you're, what, what is the driver for these communitiesyou talk about the different drivers or taking a step back, what are theecosystems?

Describe ecosystems. Are these, projects, foundations, smalldeveloper groups, one person, when you just describe ecosystem for ouraudience?

Kelsey: Yeah,absolutely. So the perspective that I have on our overall ecosystem is, is moreor less All of those above, all of the above. So we have the groups of buildersand developers.

A lot of times they're associated, but not always, withdifferent projects that say are building on Shardeum as their L1 of choice, orAL1 of choice for them. So it really encompasses all of that. I think thatthere's also a even more extended view, or broader view of ecosystem thatincludes the network of investors, and maybe their portfolio companies andprojects as well.

So there's a lot of different Aspects of that to focus on. Andwhen we're thinking about, specifically those in person community engagementsthat I mentioned for the U S I found that bringing in like that right mix ofdifferent ecosystem partners, for example, like our first one was with KoalaWallet, which is a, a smaller, newer wallet.

And then we've also worked with one of our investors stockcrypto And it's bringing that mix and then you have a community that's oh, Ican come and learn about a new wallet. I can come and learn about what'shappening, what's being built on Shardeum, but I can also get a perspectivesometimes from an investor about what they're looking for.

So it provides a more holistic perspective on Web3 that isn'tjust focused on pitching us and what we're doing. It's, it's aimed towardsreally providing more value and actually serving the local community and, andgetting us out of our apartments.

Julian: Yeah.

When thinking about, Shardeum and, and when people select L1sto work with, what are the intangibles that, they're not considering or aren'ttypically considered when selecting L1?

I'm sure there's, scalability, speed, and cost, those are onething. But as with many different products that are similar, it's, it's, it'smore than that, that, I guess contributes to, you're, you committing to workingwith that company technology product. What are the intangibles that makeShardeum, Something really special to work with, I guess.

Kelsey: Absolutely. Ithink it's a few different factors, at least for us, because we do have thatvery, very large community on Discord, like the 500, 000 plus people. Butreally, when it comes down to it, it's the sort of energy and excitement behinda project like this is a huge draw. And that's what also influenced my decisionto join the team, is okay, here's a pre made net l1

And there's this much excitement and you know that can be, youcan look at all the numbers but it's hard to measure when you go into an eventor you have a conversation and there's that level of engagement and passionthat isn't just localized to the United States. I see a lot of projects thatare just focused on specific regions.

I really like that we had a and have a broader approach and areally significant community in India. Which is a very exciting market forfolks. And again, like the level of kind of excitement and commitment to theproject in all of these different regions. And, we're still just starting outand growing in the United States has been very, very exciting.

And I think another kind of key aspect there is something that.I think is really important is the commitment to really supporting theecosystem. As an L1, I see our role as bringing in those projects forcollaborations when there's an opportunity, trying to co host some of thesecommunity engagements, when we're able to, lending.

A hand when it comes to even like advisory work, because a lotof times, you're bootstrapping your own project, you decide to build on, say,Shardeum, it's really exciting, but you're like, I actually have no idea how tobuild my own community, or market anything, or pitch to an investor, and Ithink as we grow, I want to continue to focus in and bring in those ecosystempartners more and more and help really, provide a little bit more of that sortof collaboration as well.

Because I think L1s, they're, they can be strong technicallyand they can be really strong on a brand perspective, but really it comes downto like, how invested are you in your ecosystems? And that's such a key part.

Julian: Yeah.

How does a well, an L1 measure success?

Kelsey: Yeah, oh mygosh, this has been a big conversation, I think, through my entire Web3 careerand in before that too, but it is always like, how do we know that it's quoteunquote, working?

And when I think about that, I'm not necessarily focused on thetechnical side, because that's fairly, a little less complicated to tell ifit's working or not, if it's broken or if it's These up and running andfunctional. There's of course, a lot more nuance to it, but you can tell. Withthe specific KPIs, when it comes to our side of the work, too, I really amfocused on, okay, are we sustaining?

Community growth, based on not only the typical social metrics,discord, all of that, but are we seeing a level of engagement from folks? Arewe seeing the same people coming again and again and talking and being engagedin conversations on those different channels? Because then you're seeing thebeginnings of potential,

for your, for your project. And that's really, I think, a superstrong indicator of if things are going well or not. And then as well as thatare you seeing the same folks? Come again and again to the meetups. Are youseeing them getting increasingly engaged in the conversations and, more focuson the tech and the conversations and slightly less focus on the pizza, forexample.

And so it's those, all of those sort of harder to pin down.Indicators that I think can be just as important as, Oh, we got, X number ofpress mentions this month. We had, X percentage growth in Discord. But youreally want to see those individuals maintaining their level of passion andstaying with you throughout the journey.

Julian: I waslistening to one of interviews and this concept You brought up what'sinteresting and I'm curious, talk about the trilemma being security,scalability, decentralization is, what companies like you focus on or arecomprised of, where do companies you feel within your space are similar, wheredo they compromise the most when thinking about those three, concepts?

Kelsey: Yeah, oh mygoodness. Yeah, I feel like we see a lot of that in this trilemma conversationhas been ongoing for a while now. I would say I see the most compromise when itcomes to decentralization. Because It, I see, different projects that can solvescalability through lack of decentralization and are willing to sacrifice onthat.

And that's not something we're very comfortable with. We reallywant to just come in and make sure that we're maintaining all three and trulysolving the trilemma. And I see decentralization as something other projectscan often or often sacrifice on when it comes to the human element as well.

Because I think there's decentralization from a sort of broadertech perspective, super important, super key to what we do. But then there'salso decentralization from a human perspective. Are you working with everyoneand they're based in the exact same city as you and from the same socioeconomicbackground?

Then is that real decentralization from a human perspective? Iwould argue no, and I think that that aspect is often overlooked. And it'ssomething that we're also really seeking to Broaden the perspective ondecentralization when it comes to the human side as well.

Julian: Yeah. How doyou solve the problem of, maybe not a problem, but I guess the new use casethat a lot of users or people who are engaged are typically engaged with eithermultiple products, multiple pieces of, entertainment, ads, we are bombardedwith so much.

How do you make sure that One, you're getting attention butalso driving that attention to some action.

Kelsey: Absolutely. Ithink that it really depends on, for different projects, and for us as we'relooking at new markets as well, what phase you are in that specific market. Sofor example, I think it's really a testament to our team.

Part of our team that's based in India, that Shardeum is, Iwould say, quite well known in India, and that's amazing. And so what you do totailor that and continue the community engagement is really focus in on thetypes of experiences, the information, and the content that you're providing.So instead of a broader Web3 thought leadership, almost exclusively when itcomes to that, which is what a lot of what I'm focused on here in our newermarket in the United States, it's.

The next step down, okay, what can you do with Shardeum? Andthen down the line, how do you do that? It really shifts the whole perspectiveon how you educate and bring people along that journey with you. But if youcome in at the wrong time with that type of content, it's going to fall on deafears because people don't really understand or they're not really, there's notthat level of brand affinity to really bring people in and actually want toeven take that next step if you haven't laid the proper foundation.

Julian: It's sofascinating thinking about the space because there's just so much, it's, it'sso much greenfield and you're defining as you go when you're describing whattechnologies people are building on your platform what do you see most commonlybuilt or whether it's an application or something else?

What do you see most commonly built?

Kelsey: Yeah, we'reseeing, I would say, quite an exciting variety and we have some that we're alsoannouncing in the not too distant future that I wish we could get into a littlebit more. I would say that One thing that I would like to, to pivot slightly tosee even more of are games.

I think that Web3 gaming is such a compelling broader on rampthat really does address a lot of the challenges that we've seen with adoption.I'm always very, I don't want to pigeonhole us in any way, because of coursethere's a wide range of different types of projects that are Building onChardium that we're really excited to be working with, but I, I'm extra excitedabout gaming just for the industry as a whole.

I don't know if you have dug into it as much, but do you have astrong perspective on Web3 gaming and where do you think that could take theindustry overall or have you just been like seeing what happens?

Julian: I've beenseeing what happens, just receiving information.

I'd love to hear your take on it.

Kelsey: Yeah,absolutely. I, I just think that one thing that we've missed out on a lot inWeb3 and when you're talking about, okay Adoption, and how do you keepcommunities with you, and when we're thinking about growing the industryoverall, I really do think that we've overlooked fun.

We've gotten very, serious very quickly as a way I think wefelt like we had to prove ourselves in a certain way, and, maybe NFTsintroduced a level of fun, but there wasn't the same type of engagement andrelationship that you could have with From what I've seen, NFTs just as strict,like an NFT versus a gaming experience, which can, of course, involve like NFTsas part of that whole journey.

I think it's really exciting. I've seen a lot of excitement andtraction there overall. And I think it's really great because it shows, it'sindicative of a greater focus now, I think, moving forward on the userexperience and how people want to engage with this new technology, versus likeIt's kind of scary having to write down a bunch of words for your seed phraseand then lock it in a vault.

And I know that's like a little bit of a dramatic perspective,but I really want us to get to a place where folks are using the technologywithout really knowing that they are. Just like we use a lot of things withoutnecessarily thinking about what's behind it. And that's when I feel like we'veso I to get there a little bit more in terms of adoption.

Julian: Yeah, yeah.

Some of the things you just said that I want to expand upon,but one is, when you think about the potential there, put numbers on it just,for us to have perspective in terms of, what's the potential to actually haveonline gamers, or even the average individual involved Web3 game that actually,will have, Long-term benefits or get them involved in the ecosystem that'ssubsequently say on a layer one like Shardeum.

Kelsey: Yeah. I wouldhave to look at the overall number of. Basically, the total number of folksthat are currently using any form of game, whether it be a console video game,but especially like computer PC based games, because I feel like that is themarket share and more because really. Anyone who wants to have a nice time andis interested in playing on their computer or I would love to see down the linelike a cool console game is someone that could then engage with this type ofgame as well.

if And when, some are very close and, and it's been there'sbeen a lot of progress, but just getting that user experience, something I've,I've chatted about a little in the past is I'm sure you've seen too, there wasa huge focus on play to earn. So you're playing basically to get some sort ofmonetary compensation, which.

Makes sense. That's a huge motivating factor. I'm not going topretend like it's not for pretty much everyone, unless I guess you're obscenelywealthy, but I can't really speak from that perspective. I think there's,there's been a positive shift to Play and Earn so that there's more of aengagement with the actual experience.

You're not doing it just to get something, just like you hopethat folks interact with your community, not just to get something likefinancial compensation. But they're interacting because there's something thatis really calling them in a deeper way, whether it's with a game because it's afun experience, whether it's an L1 because they're learning something, theyfeel like they've found their community and their people.

And so we want to keep seeing things shifting in that. Overalldirection and really personally, I'd just love to see some really fun games to,to play. I miss some of my old computer games. Did you ever play any when youwere growing up, or were you not into the

Julian: games?

I wasn't,

I wasn't much of agamer, but there were like a handful of games I would just get hooked on.

And so anytime I would just spend impulsively, it's four hoursdoing one thing, and then maybe touch it for a few months, and then right backonto it. But I just remember I mean it just offers so much freedom, imaginationyou can collaborate with other people. Obviously it gets a bad rap, but I thinkwe're beyond that, we know how to manage it and we know the benefits and now wesee how largely.

Impactful. The community of gaming is. It's a whole billion,trillion dollar industry worldwide and it's exciting to see the mechanisms ofWeb3 getting adopted to see what that, what that has to unfold. What, what arewe pushing towards?

And as, as we, as in, Web3, companies overall what is theeventual future that drives companies like yours?

Kelsey: I think thatwe can look at this overall vision of, decentralization for everyone. And whatdoes that mean? Everything depends where you're based, like broader access tofinancial system, should you wish to engage, like easier identity solutions,more fun with games. But ultimately what I see happening is, Web3, likeblockchain technology, whatever we want to call it.

I know we flip around on the terms. The years is that it'sgoing to be something that's operating in the background that you don'tnecessarily know you're using, but is improving things in one of those almostintangible ways, just like when you, we went from, the earliest days, likecomputers, I remember like a giant that we had that was black and white, and itwas amazing, and that operating system didn't know really how it worked, and,but it It provided this really interesting thing to us and a broad, broaderrange of connectivity to other humans.

And I think as we continue to improve You know, Web 2 andevolve into Web 3, it's going to be similar, one of those advancements that'sOh, wait, what is this at first? But then it's something that you're so used toand you're using it all the time. And it's just operating in the background,making things a little bit more efficient, even if it's just a tiny bit better.

But I think that we can do, multitudes better than that, butit's going to be just something that folks are not as focused on because it'llturn into something that's just part of your day to day life.

Julian: Yeah. If youwere to give us a range, how far are we from having it involved in technologythat we may not be even aware of?

Whether it's, in cellular and or identity or our wallet. Howfar are we from that?

Kelsey: I would liketo think within the next five years, not for the full it's in so many differentthings and we don't even know it perspective, but I would think that Save forsending remittances folks that are working in other countries and want to sendmoney home.

I feel like that could be made into a seamless experience whereyou don't know it's necessarily web three. Same with gaming, I think that folkscan be playing Web3 games within the next five years and they're notnecessarily Web3 games and you are getting badges that you don't necessarilyfocus on as NFTs because I think NFTs do not have a great rap after the crazymarket happenings of, the recent past, but so I, I think that especially withthose different uses, sooner rather than later.

As far as full, wow, this is a part of all of these differentaspects of technology, maybe a little bit longer, but could be within the next5 years if we hone in on our user experience focus a little bit more. But whatdo you think? Do you feel like that could be realistic or do you think it'sgoing to be a much longer view on it?

Julian: It's a greatquestion. I ask it without an answer. I would say that it really depends onwhat industry is willing and motivated to adopt it for a specific, validreason. I think we just see that with any technology over history is, it mightbe available, it might already have some use case where it's used.

However, it's not until a catalyst creates, a need for it. Icould see it happening in encryption of, of identity, privacy, with, if There'sa few more social scares where your people's identities are getting misplaced.I can see that moving forward You know, you can see other people adopting itfor larger data sets and There's just so many there's I talked to a friendrecently who's involved in Climate credit market.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but there's just somuch It's like the Wild Wild West because these climate credits, they, it'shard to understand their validity and track their their uses. Whether or notit's expired or used or what have you. Web3 getting involved in that, obviouslyhas benefits on a sustainability standpoint, but also who's motivated by that.

It really depends. I think five years, I, I, I feel like maybesooner. I feel like there might be a bigger push, so like three, we'll see. Itreally depends. I was talking to another friend, and I'm curious, in your take,who worked for Prime Labs, and he worked for Near Foundation, and they werechallenging a lot of the speed and scalability to take, a host of transactions.

They were doing more of a financial, tools. They saw that thespeed at which they could transact was just, they were hitting the maximum andreally not able to increase that scalability yet. There's technology that canbe made, but it costs a lot of money.

Where do you feel that scalability is in terms of companiesactually being able to handle large volumes of transaction that, say, Visa has?

Kelsey: Yeah, I thinkthat that will be something that a lot of projects are continuing to focus inon. For us, that was something that we really wanted to consider in that wedecided to create another L1 so we could build it from the ground up withscalability and the other parts of the trilemma. With that in mind it's just adifferent approach.

Like some projects, they've, they've built something thatperhaps. can't handle that volume and then they're that relying on layer twos.And there's all of these different approaches and my overall perspective now isI think building it from the ground up is inherently very strong and theapproach, of course, that I'm aligned with.

But right now there's a lot of space, I think, to takedifferent perspectives on this and ideally down the line, figure out ways tocome together and collaborate and take the best of both. And maybe it isspecific. L2s, even partnering with L1s and maintaining that level ofscalability and making sure that we can scale that level, number oftransactions without bumping up fees, like we've seen in the past with some ofthe other L1s, which again, That impacts, for me, in my perspective, the humanelement of decentralization.

So it's too expensive for a lot of folks to use, you're goingto miss out on that part. And we're not really building a very different systemat that point.

Julian: yeah. I havean answer to this, personally, but I'm curious to hear yours first.

What industry do you think will be the last to adopt Web3 orhave heavier decentralized involvement and structure?

Kelsey: That's aninteresting one. I would have to think about that. When I think of some of theslower, more bureaucratic elements, I don't know that it would be necessarilyan industry, but I think that certain parts of the government might be a littlebit slower to completely adopt Web3 and not because it isn't the best possiblesolution for some of the challenges that we face on that level, just because Itcan take a while to navigate implementing new solutions.

And part of that is due to the fact that it can just budgetsand taking a long time to wrap your head around things concerns around a newtechnology and sort of the desire to protect the population, but also it justcan take. Forever to update systems that you already have. I know certaingovernment agencies are still using very old ones due to security concerns andmaking sure that there's no data leaked and all of that kind of stuff.

So I could see that taking a little bit longer. And again, notbecause it isn't a great solution. It wouldn't be a real positive thing, bothfor the agencies as well as The people that they are serving, but just becausesometimes it just takes a lot longer within those sort of structures.

Julian: Yeah, yeah. Ilike how you answered it.

From what you answered, it sounded like time, time elapsed interms of time adoption. I was thinking about it in the sense of, of like massadoption, seeing when it's more commonplace. I personally think it's social. Ithink social platforms have so much power. And it's really hard to relinquishthat, especially when it's commonplace to be on, have an Instagram or have aFacebook, have a LinkedIn, have these professional, personal, and relationshipI guess arenas, I don't know what you would call them, ecosystems.

But I think social would be the hardest because it, it, itdepends on relinquishing data and privacy. And as we know, that's been a battlefor so long. That's my, that's my defense.

Kelsey: Yeah, I thinkthat that makes sense because in your mind what incentive would socialplatforms as they exist now have to, start working with or implementing Web3based solutions that are handing all of the data?

Exactly. Zero.

Julian: tHey'llprobably integrate wallets and stuff, but I don't think, yeah, I highly doubtit'll be like, Yeah, because that's their biggest monetary component, that'stheir business model, is taking information and having, ad spend on it orhaving companies pay for it.

It's interesting to hear, though, about holding almost likeyour data as a profile in Web3 ecosystems being able to opt in and thenactually opt out without having any residual information, cookies, cash,personal information left behind. How do you think that changes how companies Iguess collaborate?

Because I, I, I see there being so much potential now that theyhave to collaborate almost and, and share customers. Do you feel like it'll bemore collaborative or do you think it'll move to a way that is highly focused,singular places?

Kelsey: Yeah, I, Iwould like to think it'd be a little more collaborative.

I, in practice It's really hard to say. I think that if that'ssomething that there is a clear benefit to that relates to the bottom line withsome of the organizations, I could see it moving to a more collaborative way,but you also have to really facilitate that. And so that can be, I think thatthere's a great payoff to focusing in on that, but it can take a little bit ofeffort.

Upfront, because when you think about it, like just on even onan individual level, if you're stretched really thin or a team is stretchedreally thin and you're trying to think about how to collaborate with anothergroup, to do it well requires some time and energy and brainpower, and thatwould make things easier in the long run.

But sometimes there's just no, none of that initial energy andeffort being put into it when it needs to happen to reap those longer termbenefits. What do you think the evolution would be there?

Julian: Yeah. I don'thave an answer for you. I don't. Yeah. I don't. Yeah.

Kelsey: I, I justgenerally like to see a little more collaboration across the board, but havingworked at so many different projects and organizations at this point, I thinkit really depends on those teams. We're all just a bunch of people like lookingat this, whether you're a part of a company, whether you're an individual or afreelancer and it's time and energy and level of prioritization.

Sometimes folks are just stretched too thin. Maybe especiallyif they're working in the realm of emergent tech where you're bootstrapping andyou have maybe 10 jobs in one, which is amazing and really rewarding in some.But Ken, I think you can see some of that collaborative element suffering attimes.

Julian: I think itreally depends on how good the business is going to be on figuring out how tomonetize outside of just direct sales. You see a lot of companies that do areally good job of just keeping this Glossier first, for instance, everybodywaits for the next Glossier pop up event. And they always have some uniqueitem, or, you, you almost are part of that community, right?

They, they're, I would say community, and they've done it foryears, and anyone who might have something, you're like, Oh, where did you getthat? There's always an exchange in that, and I think they've done such a goodjob, but other companies, I think, have very much more focused on how can Itransact now, and how can I, more so do a long term sale, and cater to theshort term needs.

We'll see. I think companies that do it well will continue todo well. Other companies, you'll see just random, I don't know, I'm intofashion, and I was not a great fan of the Fandasi collaboration. It was veryodd and but, people are trying new things, so we'll see. It's all, theexperiment of it but I'm curious, to hear from you.

When did when did a career in technology seem like the onlything, maybe not the only thing, but the right decision. There's so manydifferent industries, there's so many different worlds people live in. When wasit like, oh, technology is something I want to build a career in?

Kelsey: Yeah, Iworked in fashion industry and with beauty brands.

I love the glossy example you gave us like, um, so I, I wasworking for a very small luxury beauty brand, like a long time ago now, maybethis was like 2016, 2017. And I'd always been interested in getting more intothe tech side of things just because it seems super exciting to me.

Do I appreciate? A good nail polish. Am I intrigued by thelatest Glossier drop? Yes, absolutely. But I was trying to figure out, do Iwant to spend most of every day focusing on similar things? And I was like, Idon't know. I don't think so. It's not energizing me every day. The problemsthat we were solving were fascinating, but ultimately not for me as much.

And it's something that I knew I could continue to engage withshould I pursue another career. And I had chatted with some folks, over theyears, and I'd heard a little bit about blockchain technology. And for me, itwasn't just pursuing a career in tech, although I was broadly interested andhad done some consulting for different projects, but especially emergent tech.

So I was like, if I'm going to make this leap, Let's gosomewhere a little strange and cool that's going to be different and excitingand uncertain. I think I had a relatively high tolerance for that type of riskand had the privilege to know that if everything crashed and burned, I couldmove home.

I, like I wouldn't have been able to afford to stay here, but,it. I think that I was in a place where all of those factors came together andI felt like I could take that. Risk in 2018, I think I started interviewingmaybe 2017 and I had heard I was actually at some fashion party event in Sohohere in New York City and ran into someone because we had on the same like jeanjacket with the fleecy stuff on the insides, it was cold out and we startedtalking and she worked for a Web3 company.

It was ConsenSys. So we hit it off and had some moreconversations, and I'd already been doing some research and poking aroundbecause my banking friends were nervous about blockchain. I was like, this isintriguing. And I ended up giving myself a little crash course and goingthrough all the different interviews and just took the plunge.

And it was really, it was. Just as exciting and strange andinteresting as I had hoped it would be and maybe even more.

Julian: Yeah. Andwhat in particular led you into, marketing and growth strategy, attractingpeople towards the ecosystem versus, so many different ways you could, youcould work within the company?

Was it something you're naturally already, Good at, the skillsyou came with, or something that you grew into.

Kelsey: Yeah, so mybackground was in like marketing, communications, brand strategy, some of thecreative side of things, but I also just fell into that as well. I think it'sbecause I really enjoy the human side of things.

And for me, based on the types of jobs that were available thatalso focused on the human side of things. Marketing and community strategy andthat side of it was what was available and what worked out. So it wasn't okay,I'm planning on.

Doing growth in emerging tech or just across the board,focusing on that.

But that really seemed like a great intersection for my skillsand what I really enjoyed doing, which was bringing people together, trying tounderstand them, understanding how they see themselves, and then focusing onhow to actually reach them where they are whether it's through like education.

Whether it's through a creative brand strategy a press release,whatever that shape that takes. But that being said, it's like always somethingthat I feel like I always want to take, the. Coding classes and the differentboot camps and it's always on my list, but it's one of those things where it'sharder to make it a priority after a full day of doing the other job.

So I, I've, I've definitely toyed with that a lot and just formy own education, upskilling on that side of thing would be really excitingwhether or not I would, focus more on that moving forward. Fairly unlikely, butyeah, I just like the human element of things. And it's a part that I thinksometimes in tech we overlook.

Julian: What's thethe last thing that maybe sparked an idea? Whether it was an audio book, abook, something someone said. What's the last thing that sparked an idea foryou and what did it spark?

Kelsey: Yeah, I guessa recent one was I was at the annual meeting for one of our supporters at stockcrYpto, they're awesome.

And I was at a series of panels and conversations, and it wasbefore Thanksgiving, so I started thinking about all of us leaving, and basedon some of the conversations we were having there, like how you start havingconversations with folks that aren't in the industry. Because I think sometimeswe stick in our own little bubbles.

So from that sort of sparked the idea for an op ed that I wrotethat was focused on conversations you have when you go home for Thanksgivingand you're like sitting at the table with your family. And so that was a lotof. A lot of fun. And I think for me, that really hit home with all of thecontent that I consume outside of Web3 in tech and how it's presented, likeeven old fashioned magazines different, even like fashion blogs as well, andjust really how we're talking about those things and making the information andcontent visual and digestible.

It's a different topic. But I think that sometimes in emergenttech and, Web3, we overlook that. People just also want to be entertained.You're so right. Yeah. You're so right. We miss it a lot. So I'm just reallythat and all of those different things inspired me so much. What is actuallymore entertaining?

What would I want to look at and read that doesn't feel like,even though I am very fascinated by it, but another work thing? What would Ipick up off the clock in a way?

Julian: Yeah, Iwholeheartedly agree with everything you said and even more so building acompany because you want to identify What am I even interested in?

What are people around me? Why how long do they use theseproducts? why are they using them for so long because Because it also elicits acertain type of feeling and experience and so when you I feel like realize thatas a whether founders from building in a certain space or attracting attentionfor a product You gotta understand that yeah, people just want to have fun, seesomething that's funny or be tapped into something emotional that, is somethingthat's powerful, and it's, and you gotta play within those, naturalrelationships that humans have with things, and, and and entertainment I agree,there's a lot, I talk to founders all the time, I'm like, what are you guysdoing, because there's just so much companies that are not necessarily amazing.

Having a holistic maybe brand identity things just don't feelgood. I don't know how else to describe it, they just don't feel cohesive orfun to work with. Yeah, that's my two cents.

Kelsey: No, we'redefinitely on the same page there because you see. A lot of the same out there,and of course there's a reason those decisions have been made, but just reallythink about, your audiences and like what they would actually want to pick upand look at if it's, say, another rainy weekend in New York that we've beengoing through for I don't know how many weekends straight, and be entertainedand enjoy, and to what you were saying too, it builds that Sort of brandaffinity, like people that want to be a part of that community because maybethat community is fun and creative and a little bit different and engaging inthat way, and then you have your own kind of culture and rhetoric to a degreearound what you're doing and it just brings everyone together in a reallyunique way.

Julian: Yeah. If Iwas a developer or someone with an idea and want to get involved in Web3, um,what would you recommend? Where do I start?

Kelsey: Yeah, I wouldsay, aside from reaching out to our team, which I think is a great group ofresources at, Shardeum. org, I really think that it's, if you're able to get toany of those in person, Meetups or events that I mentioned and the reason is Ifound them to be quite, they have their pitfalls, but they're quitecollaborative.

They'll give you a really great sense of what's happening inthe ecosystem. And there are a lot of collaborative folks that are willing tobring you under their wing. Whether it's say with like our project or others, Ido think that there's great online bootcamps, but I think that. For thatinitial sort of community building and spark, if you're able to get tosomething in person, anything from a proof of community meetup to a largerconference, sometimes the smaller ones feel a little easier to navigate andpeople will notice and take an interest a little bit more.

That can be a really great way to do it. And you'll be buildingout your network at the same time because under the assumption, making theassumption that You may want to, say, work in Web3 down the line as a builder,as a developer, as a marketer, whatever. Meeting people as early as you canwill really help you secure one of those positions down the line also, ifthat's your goal.

Julian: Yeah.poDcaster to podcaster, what's some what's a question that you always love toask and and, and that we can implement into this show?

Kelsey: Yeah, there'sso many different interesting ones. Luckily, we covered a lot of sort of thehuman element, like brand type questions that I love to talk about.

I always think it's interesting to hear more about a project ornot even in Web3 that you think is doing community right and by whateverdefinition you have in mind, whether it's, oh, it's because it's big or whetherit because it's the smallest, most engaged group you've ever seen.

Does any sort of organization come to mind for you when itcomes to that sort of perspective?

Julian: That's agreat question because I'm building a community right now Grupo where, where weconnect remote workers and So I obsess about people who are doing it right. Ithink, it's hard because it's, it's wherever, and now it's about the platformand who you are as a person, so whether you're on Slack and those communities.

I think Gen Z VCs does a really good job actually of people whoare attracting or wanting to get into VC and become a scout and things likethat. They're a really strong Slack community, do a really good job. Highengagement. I think other, I think companies wise, there's so many Web3companies I, I can think of, but they're all doing a pretty good job.

They have such high level of engagement, they have products,Midjourney is obviously doing a great job, but they have such a They have sucha really good way of keeping things trending, prompting. I don't know if yousee that, but there's so many trends of mid journey AI photos, and then it'severyone getting involved in that.

Individuals

Kelsey: The more ofthe cheeseburger with pickles and more pickles and more pickles and morepickles.

Julian: I'm like,come on. I'm like, but I'm gonna Yeah, so many pickles. But I'm gonna do itmyself, of course. I think individuals there's so many great creators now inthe tech space it's interesting always to listen to Balaji and his ideas yeah,yeah.

I think there's so many people doing it right and they're thepeople you see often, when you're on, when you're scrolling, they're thosepeople who, who you're seeing whether they're a smaller name or they've hit youin the perfect niche and, and, you're always seeing them on your feed.

Those two. I feel maybe we're not one, but I, I aim to be thelatter.

Kelsey: Yeah. That'sawesome. I think that it's a really good perspective on, on what you're likehoping to build and, and grow to, which is really exciting. And how long haveyou been focused on like Grupo and, and what sort of was the catalyst for, forthat?

Julian: Yeah, we, welaunched Grupo in June. And the catalyst was we built a huge community of 5,000 developers in South America. And we just kept hearing that they werefeeling isolated, feeling alone, then, having challenges, just developing otherskills outside of the technical skills because they're talented, but maybe onthe communication level, they feel less confident or if applying for jobs orwhatever.

So there was just so much there and so my co founder starteddoing community events and we started doing discussions and that just led tothe fact that we wanted to invest all of our time into a community. Andoffering resources and then ideally creating an ecosystem where people selfinvest.

And we want to, in the short term, help people who are goingthrough job transitions because, that's super valuable and our community reallylooks for that. Super ambitious individuals, they just need to get that nextstep. Long term, it's a community for everyone to get everything. We domeditations we do technical discussions community calls.

Individuals across the world want to connect, especially ifthey're feeling isolated or not in a city center, not, not everyone lives inNew York City like you and I and we have the privilege to do that, but there'sonline communities of people who are like minded, who want to build connect, asand so we use Grupo as a vehicle to connect them.

My family also comes from Mexico, and so I think, anytime I'mable to connect and globalize opportunities, it's always passion for me. sothat combination of things really led to, making the decision to, create thiscommunity. And I look back.

Kelsey: That's soawesome. I really feel like it sounds like at least the initial community is alot of folks in Latin America, which honestly is such a, I think, overlookedmarket right now in Web3.

And I know the last DevCon was in Columbia, which is awesome.That's a good move forward. But it's like. All the projects, listening, it'sfocus in because I think that there's so much there and like I worked with someincredible individuals that are based in like Mexico City and as well and fromthere as well as Other parts of Argentina, like Brazil, and there's so muchhappening there that I feel like a lot of the folks that are based over here,we don't get a strong sense of unless you're like directly interacting withthose communities.

Julian: Yeah, a fewthings they've done well in places like Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Colombia,they've invested in education and engineering. incentivized programs, for thelast 10 years, and they have colleges that really pump out a lot of engineers,software developers, people with, technical skills and they have a uniqueplayground to test a lot of different products.

They don't have a mature tech market like we do in the sensewhere You know, we almost have it integrated in our daily life. You Uber fromthe airport, you order on these four different platforms, you, there's so manydifferent things you can name. A lot of companies down there are still fightingfor their space.

Yeah, you have the Rappis, you have the Mercado Libres, youhave the Brex of the world. But they're still solving local problems. And soright now they're testing in the most available, latest, most interestingtechnologies, Web3, so like They have that combination, like you have to listenbecause all the time, we're not spending on developing technology like that.

They are. People down there are and that's exciting for me.Places like, places like South America and Africa really are exciting for, new,new emerging technology or new technology actually being tested, on a biggerscale.

Kelsey: Yeah. That'sso awesome. It was great hearing a little bit more about Grupo too.

I want to check you guys out some more because, like I don'tknow. I think that that's just like a exciting focus and providing someeducation and that level of connectivity is so key for really any community.

Julian: Yeah. Thankyou. Kelsey, we're a little bit over time. My last question I always like toask is, is there any question I didn't ask you that I should have?

Kelsey: Oh, that's sofunny. That's the, I think in interviews over the years I asked somethingsimilar whenever I chatted with someone about a job in the past. So it is oneof my favorites. I think anything that you didn't ask would spark an entireother conversation. I think that there's a lot to get into.

Around, diversity inclusion stuff at different, as in theindustry overall and Web3 and how we can actively try to focus on that a littlebit more. And we touched on it through, I feel like, the human level ofdecentralization, but we could get into that maybe another day.

Julian: Yeah, yeah.

I guess the last thing is, where can our audience find you?What are you currently excited about? Those two things before we wrap up here.

Kelsey: Oh, awesome.Yeah, go to like shardeum.Org, has a lot of good stuff. For me personallyLinkedIn, I like. I have avoided Twitter for many, many years, which is wildbecause I've worked in Web3 for so long.

But I'm starting to do a little bit over there.Progressionally. So that's Yeah, very, very begrudgingly, but I was like, youknow what, let's get some other perspectives out there. So they over there, I'mat HeyMaguire. And then, yeah, I think they started him, but thank you.

That's like my little eth address too.

But other than that, I think LinkedIn that I would say that ifyou actually want a response LinkedIn is great because if folks are looking at.Jobs or want general advice. Like I'm happy to talk to you, just send me amessage. So I know how you figured out how to reach me and you're not just arandom person on LinkedIn.

But yeah, definitely Shardeum. org is great too.

Julian: Amazing.Kelsey, thank you so much for joining the show today. It's been a privilege tohave a conversation with you.

Kelsey: Yeah. Thankyou so much.

Julian: Thank you forwatching the episode. The Grupo podcast is about technology and working in aremote world. If you like what we're doing, please like, comment, subscribe,and support us interviewing the leaders of today.